Extremely Not So Limited Liveblogging. [Postmortem Update]

I'm on deadline and shouldn't even be watching the debate, but I'm too much of a strung-out political junkie by now to pass it up.

I'm not going to make any effort to trot through the whole shebang on the keyboard, dutifully documenting boilerplate, chunks of stump speech regurgitated whole, and tired trademark phrases (unless their occurrence is so overwhelming that it becomes a general phenomenon worthy of mention).  I'll just remark on anything that particularly strikes me.

*  *  *

I missed the intro and how they greeted each other because I had to go pee while the going was good.  Women!

"Put a floor under it":  McCain repeats his proposal to take $300 billion of the $700 billion and buy up bad mortgages and lower the rates, as the necessary short-term fix.  (McCain sounds very good, focused, despite small misspeakings like "billion" for "seven hundred billion" that anyone might make.)

Obama says that could be a giveaway to banks and could waste the taxpayers' money.

McCain challenges Obama on a particular "Joe the plumber" in Ohio who wanted to buy his business, but would be put into the "rich," highly taxed category by Obama.  Obama's tax plan will raise taxes on small businesses.

Obama:  "He's been watching some ads of Senator McCain's!"  That's funny.

Obama repeats his "95% of you will get a tax cut."  Obama wants to give future entrepreneurs a tax break so they can become entrepreneurs??  Then penalize them with taxation for having succeeded??

McCain:  "We're going to take Joe the plumber's money, give it to Sen. Obama and he'll spread the wealth around.  I want Joe to spread his own wealth around.  Class warfare, redistribution!  He will create jobs unless you take the money away from him."

Obama goes back to "95% vs. Warren Buffett."  McCain says, "We're talking about Joe the plumber."  Joe the plumber is rapidly attaining iconic status as Obama flounders.  "They can afford to pay a little more . . ."  McCain has definitely scored with Joe.

McCain:  Our tax rate on businesses is 35%, Ireland it's 11%.  Why raise anyone's taxes??  Let's create jobs, not "spread the wealth around."

Schieffer:  "Aren't you both ignoring reality?  Won't some of the programs you're planning have to be trimmed, postponed, even eliminated?"

Obama:  "the need to invest in the American people."  Health care is an investment that saves Medicare and Medicaid in the future.  Energy, an investment.  Education is an investment in the future.

McCain goes back to home ownership.  This buying up of bad loans was done during the Depression.  Increase home values.  McCain is placing an awful lot of his chips on that one number.

Across the board spending freeze.  "That's a hatchet, and then I would get out a scalpel."  McCain names programs he eliminated.  He opposes subsidies for ethanol:  it distorts the market and creates inflation.  Line item veto.  Cut out all the pork.

Obama disagrees about the spending freeze.  Some programs don't work and should be eliminated.  Some are underfunded.  Earmarks are screwy, but they aren't a big enough percentage of the budget for eliminating them to solve the problem.

McCain is smiling calmly.  He looks . . . what's the word . . . authoritative.  Immovable.  Gravitas-y.  Reassuring.  Anything but "erratic."  Obama looks callow, too cold, and off balance.

Obama: " in terms of standing up to the leaders of my party," he supported tort reform and charter schools and clean coal.  Even Fox News disputes the claim that O. voted for a tax increase on people making $42,000.

McCain said, "If you wanted to run against Bush, you should've run four years ago."  Obama has nothing new to say in response to that, only "They're the same policies and the American people know they don't work."

McCain says his across-the-aisle credentials are much better -- he lists them -- and Obama looks sour and sullen, an unusual expression for him.

Schieffer brings up the negativity of the campaign, throwing out some of their strongest negative phrases.  Would they say that to each other's faces??  

McCain does not talk to or look at Obama.  He almost tears up recalling John Lewis's association of him and Palin with segregation and church bombings.  He asks Obama to repudiate those remarks.  He says Obama has spent more money on negative ads than any campaign ever, and broke his promise to stick to public financing.

Obama says 100% of McCain's ads have been negative.  He mentions "our hurt feelings" not being important to the American people.  He tries to bring it back to the economy, and mentions McCain's campaign saying that if they talked about the economy they'd lose. 

McCain brings up sports, and Obama grins.  Now McCain starts to talk to Obama saying he has misrepresented McCain on federal funding of stem cell research (

Back to Joe the plumber and "I'm not going to spread his wealth around, I'm going to let him keep his wealth."  That will prove to be the centerpiece of this debate.

McCain raises John Lewis again.  Obama says Lewis, "unprompted by my campaign," was concerned by things shouted at a rally led by "your running mate."  McCain almost jumps up and down, saying "You've got to read what he said."  It seems to have been genuinely hurtful to McCain, who had mentioned Lewis in the Saddleback forum as one of his wise advisors.

McCain:  "I'm proud of the people who come to our rallies. . . . You're going to have some fringe people. But I'm not going to stand for anyone saying the people who come to my rallies are anything but the most dedicated, patriotic people . . . "  He mentions offensive T-shirts on Obama supporters, no doubt the ones saying "Sarah Palin is a c*nt." 

Obama won't engage.  McCain says he's repudiated the inevitable fringe crazies at his rallies; has Obama done as much?  Obama goes back to the economy and cold generalities about negative campaigning.  Here McCain's heat seems much more human than Obama's cool.

When McCain mentions ACORN perpetrating huge voter fraud, "destroying the fabric of our democracy," with $800,000 from the Obama campaign, Obama smiles dismissively, or tries to, but it looks more like a grimace.  Obama has nothing new to say about Ayers:  just "Forty years ago when I was eight years old . . . He's not part of my campaign."  As he talks about representing ACORN "alongside the U.S. Justice Department" on a motor voter law, McCain smiles like a cross between the Cheshire Cat and the older Charlie Chaplin (whom I've long thought he resembles).

Obama says "I associate with Warren Buffett and Paul Volcker. . . . Lugar" . . . Democrats and Republicans. 

McCain is getting in a lot of material about Ayers and ACORN.  Obama tries to counter that that's all McCain's campaign is about.  McCain says his campaign is about "not raising taxes on the American people."

Schieffer asks about the choice of running mate.  Obama emphasizes Biden's foreign policy credentials, acknowledged by all, and his blue-collar roots.  That's the first thing Obama has done well in this debate -- to implicitly parry Sarah Palin's foreign-policy inexperience and blue-collar cred.  "I think he shares my core values."  But Obama's in a box here; he cannot attack Sarah Palin remotely the way his followers have done.  What's he going to do?  Just talk about Biden?

McCain says softly that Palin is a role model and a reformer.  She was on a board, she saw corruption, she resigned.  Special needs kids, women's issue, thus the soft tone of voice. 

Obama:  "Obviously she's a capable politician, she's excited the base . . ." and if you want to take care of special needs kids, you can't cut funding. 

McCain:  "Why do we always have to spend more?  Why do we always have to spend more?"  Obama has asked for $846 billion in new spending!  And he's going to raise your taxes!

Schieffer changes the subject to energy independence.

McCain:  we need to cut out imports of Middle Eastern oil and Venezuelan oil.  Canadian oil is fine.  Saying you're going to unilaterally renegotiate NAFTA -- scorn in his voice -- you don't say that!  Canada said "we'll sell our oil to China."  Nuclear.  Sen. Obama will tell you as the extreme environmentalists do, "It has to be safe."  But the Navy sailed around the world on nuclear power.

McCain is sharp as a tack tonight, jumping on every point he needs to jump on, and seeming at times irritated but never agitated.  So much for the "senility" crowd. 

Obama talks a tinge of protectionism.

McCain turns Obama's "eloquence," which "I admire so much," against him.  "You have to look at the words.  He says we have to 'look at' offshore drilling.  We have to drill now!"

Colombia is helping us fight drugs, create jobs . . . it's a no-brainer.  But Obama has never traveled south of the border. 

Obama:  labor leaders have been targeted for assassination and there have not been prosecutions.  There are labor and environmental protections built into the Colombian agreement, but . . . what?  "We have to stand up for human rights."  What's his point?  He supported the Peruvian free trade agreeement which was "well structured." 

McCain:  Obama wants to sit down across the table with Hugo Chavez, no preconditions, but does not want to do business with our best ally in the region.

"He wants to restrict trade and raise taxes.  The last president who tried that was Herbert Hoover.  And we went from a recession into a deep depression."

Schieffer goes to health care.  Obama:  "This is the issue that will break your heart over and over again."  Hey, he's telling a story, which he doesn't do often enough!  "We can cut the average family's premium by about $2500 a year."  If you don't have insurance, you can buy into a pool that provides health insurance like he and Sen. McCain get (??!!).  Information technology to eliminate bureaucracy.  More money for prevention.  Will cost some money on the front end.  How to save the federal budget.

McCain seems to be elaborating on Obama's "prevention" idea:  the rise of obesity among young Americans; physical fitness and nutrition in schools; employers should reward employees who join health clubs.  But -- here comes Joe the plumber again!  It worked so well the first three times, let's repeat it till it jumps the shark!  McCain starts hitting on "single payer."  Obama interrupts.

Obama too talks to "Joe."  "Here's your fine:  zero.  I exempt small businesses from the requirement for large businesses that can afford it."  (Where do you draw the line between small and large?)  Now he attacks McCain's plan.  $5000 credit is fine for young healthy people, not for older people.  The average policy costs about $12,000.  (McCain claims it's $5800.)  McCain will be taxing the benefit for the first time.  You'll see more cherry-picking and excluding of people by insurance companies.  Obama is on his surest ground here.

"Hey Joe -- "  Back to "spread the wealth."  "Joe, congratulations, you're rich, you'll have to pay the fine."  McCain accidentally calls Obama "Senator Government."  That would be good if it was intentional!  He keeps saying Obama will force you to have the kind of insurance he thinks you should have.

Obama rejoinders that McCain "All I want to do is lower your costs."

Schieffer:  Roe v. Wade.  "Could either of you ever nominate anyone to the Supreme Court someone who disagreed with you?"  McCain:  "I have never imposed a litmus test.  I'm a federalist.  I think it was a bad decision, it should rest in the hands of the states."  But qualifications, not litmus tests.  Obama did not join the Gang of Fourteen.  "I voted for Breyer and Ginsburg, not because I agreed with their ideology, but because I thought they were qualified, and because I know elections have consequences. ... I do not believe someone who has supported Roe v. Wade would be [qualified], but I would not apply a litmus test."

Obama:  "This is going to be one of the most consequential decisions" the next president will make.  "One of us will appoint at least one justice.  Roe v. Wade probably hangs in the balance."  He makes the familiar "women are in the best position to make that decision" and "constitution has right to privacy in it that should not be subject to state referendum" argument.

Obama raises Ledbetter -- equal pay case.  The judges rejected the case because she waited too long to bring the suit.  McCain:  "waived statute of limitations . . . a trial lawyer's dream."

McCain:  we have to change the culture of America . . . courage and compassion . . . immediately brings up the "Born Alive" act.  Illinois State Senate.  (Obama is pouting.)  "I don't know how you vote 'present' on something like that.  I don't know how you align yourself with the most extreme pro-abortion . . . "

Obama:  "if it sounds incredible that I would vote to withhold lifesaving treatment from an infant, that's because it's not true. . . . There was already a law on the books that required providing lifesaving treatment."  Therefore the Illinois Medical Society voted against it as well as Republicans and Democrats, because the law would have undermined Roe v. Wade

"I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions" of any kind as long as there is an exception for . . . "  I missed what he said!  I heard "the mother's life," but did he say "health or life"?  Yes, because McCain immediately says "health" is "the extreme pro-abortion position" because "that can be stretched to mean anything."

Obama:  There is common ground.  Prevent unintended pregnancies.  Communicate that sexuality is sacred and they should not be engaged in "cavalier activity."  (That brings unwanted images to my mind . . . people in satin knee breeches and plumed hats.)  Adoption.  McCain:  of course, of course, but we will not abandon protection of the unborn. 

Obama did well on this question.  No flippant "pay grade" responses.  I think he could have won over some centrists with his answer. 

Schieffer has to interrupt because there's only time for one more question:  education.

I missed Obama's response, except that he started out by saying "Money vs. reform?  We need both!" and ended by saying parents have to shut off the TV and take away the videogames.

McCain:  "It's the civil rights issue of the 21st century.  What's the advantage of sending a child to a failed school," no choice . . . charter schools, reward good teachers, fire bad teachers; provide choice.  Charter schools are providing competition.  Throwing money at the problem is not the answer.  Some of the worst schools get the most money per student.

Obama:  "they left the money behind for no child left behind."  Focus on early childhood education.  "I doubled the number of charter schools in Illinois" against teachers' union opposition.  College accessibility and affordability:  McCain's campaign called students needing financial aid an "interest group."  How are we going to pay for things like lowering loan rates, which McCain suggested? 

(J wants to lie down now and I'm stopping paying attention before it's over.)  It's absolutely true that neither man is really saying how the promises they're making will be paid for.  

Final statements:  coin toss:  McCain wins.  "I've been a careful steward of your tax dollars."  He's having trouble articulating now, they're both tired. McCains have served for generations. "I've been proud to serve, and I hope you'll give me an opportunity to serve again.  I'll be honored and humbled."

Obama:  Worst economic crisis since the Great Depression . . . worst risk we could take, same failed policies and same failed politics . . . we need fundamental change . . . we're going to have to invest in the American people again.  Policies, middle class, come together, renew a spirit of sacrifice and service and responsibility.  Obama says, if you give me this honor I promise I'll . . . and then he seems to go blank for an instant . . . work every minute of every day on your behalf.  Well, that's just the job description!

Schieffer's mother always said, "Go vote now:  it'll make you feel big and strong."

McCain this time warmly congratulates Obama:  "Good job!  Good job."  It's Obama who's much cooler.

UPDATE:  Both in the polls and on the blogs, people seem to be reacting on the basis of seeing good in whoever they've already decided to vote for.  Me too, I suppose, although I tried to be even-handed.  That's depressing.

Comments

[karen]

Hey Melinda- are you here? It's just starting...

Amba, your the junkie- i'm the glutton for punishment. May i just say- i'm going to go to channel 5 because i hate Katie Couric's groups of undecided voters.

[Melinda]

"We're the knights of the round table..."

[karen]

~you're~...

[karen]

Don't forget how much slower my computer is than yours.

[Melinda]

Joe the Plumber is now the most popular guy in America.

[karen]

I hope Joe the Plumber gets famous over this.

[Melinda]

I just posted "Joe the Plumber is now the most popular guy in America" but typepad ate it. Great minds think alike.

[karen]

:0).

Mc seems to like this format, eh? Do you think B.Obama is going to relax sometime soon... ahhhhhhh- quite the question from Bob. Diggin' up the nasty accusations.

[karen]

Did B.Obama ever say that the 1st act of his Presidency would be to overturn the ban on partial-birth abortions? I thought that he did. Yet, there he goes blurring the lines of the compassionate proChoice pol.

I really think Mc was on the $$$$ tonight.

I admire B.Obama's intelligence, but i still believe him a liar.

[Melinda]

The winner tonight: Schieffer. Best questions.

[karen]

Am i the only Knight left tonight?
Where'd you go, Melinda?

[karen]

Amba, you've done it again!! How do you get everything so straight and do all that you have to do to keep peace and comfort- and a paying job to boot?

[Melinda]

I'm calling it a night early. Very long day.

Annie, thanks once again!

[Donna B.]

Obama: "This is going to be one of the most consequential decisions" the next president will make. "One of us will appoint at least one justice. Roe v. Wade probably hangs in the balance."

May I call BS? Roe v Wade ain't going nowhere and is not even on the waiting list of hanging in the balance.

It's emotional, yes. But it does not concern most people because all it allows is a "choice" and most do not disagree with that.

I've got problems with late term abortions - if a woman can't figure out before the 8th month (or 4th month) that she doesn't want to have a baby... well, tough luck, I say. Give it up for adoption.

But I am not going to judge a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant and most likely took measures to prevent it... I'm not out to punish anyone.

While I don't necessarily agree with the way Roe v Wade was decided, it's technicalities more than substance.

[Outis]

Health care is an investment that saves Medicare and Medicaid in the future.

No, better health care NOW ensures that Medicare will cost even more as people live longer. It's the same thing as people costing more over time if they quit smoking (or never smoke) than if they do. The best thing for Medicare (cost-wise) would be to teach every kindergartner to smoke their first day in school, and to provide free unfiltered cigarettes for everyone. With extra tar for a smooth, rich taste.

[Outis]

For example, my brother isn't going to cost Medicare a dime, because he's going to be dead before he's eligible. I, on the other hand, might cost a bundle since I don't smoke and may well last to 100.

(Okay, I won't last that long. I doubt I will survive 2028. It's that damned twenty year thing.)

[amba]

"damned twenty year thing"??

[sail on]

Obama had some lesser moments but he came across as genuine and plausibly presidential while McCain had numerous stumbles, illogical
/unrelated (even garble d)responses and a lame line on Joe the Plumber (aka Joe Sixpack - is that his beverage or his abs?)

Obama has swept the debates, cinfidently and clearly (a few nitpicky points notwithstanding)

Only the election truly counts, and I look forward to casting my first in-person (not absentee) ballot in 20 years, in Florida - after yesterday voting for no discernible change in the Canadian federal election.

[Ally]

McCain was much better tonight than last week. But his nervous laugh and his eye-rolling rival Al Gore's sighs for most annoying debate characteristics.

I predicted some weeks ago that from that point forward it would be all downhill for McCain. It was a wild-ass guess, but I was right. I should hire myself out as a pundit. This race is over, barring a major world event (a really bad terrorist attack) or an enormous Bradley effect. It will tighten a bit, but not enough to make a difference. Obama will get at least 300 electoral votes. Take that to Vegas. And guess what? The world won' end. I wonder how many of you in the anti-Obama camp will be willing to give him a fair shake as president. Full disclosure: I never gave W a fair shake, but then again he didn't deserve one. I thought his one fine moment was his speech to Congress after 9/11.W makes Hoover and McKinley look like Lincoln and Jefferson.

[RW Rogers]

Canadians can be dual citizens, sail on?

[Outis]

RW, why does he have to be a citizen to vote? Fictional characters are voting in Florida, felons are voting in Florida. So do residents of New York, New Jersey, etc. Why not Canadians?

That's depressing.

Just remember that all the candidates suck, and then ignore the debate. You'll feel much better in the morning.

"damned twenty year thing"??

Every twenty years a gigantic crap sandwich is delivered to me, and I have to eat it. In the last year my family has had (at least) two incidents of cancer, four deaths (I forgot about a cousin earlier today when I said it was three), a home invasion, a burglery, a job lost because my (former) boss was an asshole, and at least one more death on the way. The funny thing is, as bad as my year has been I'm actually getting off relatively light this time.

And 20 years ago it was a mysterious illness that left my mother in a coma, a car accident that damn near killed my brother and me (the list of injuries is too long to recount), a long painful recovery, another asshole of a boss (what kind of man tries to start a fight with an employee that's on crutches?), more cancer, a stupid doctor, the death of my father in part because of said stupid doctor, an inguinal hernia for me (as if I didn't have enough problems), an horrendous case of strep throat (resistant to antibiotics), and who knows what else that I forgot.

And 20 years before THAT I had the worst luck of all - I was born. Thrust out of the snug, warm comfort of the womb into this vale of tears. That was the worst deal I ever got!

So I've already circled 2028 on my mental calendar. I'm sure it will suck, I just don't know how. If I could crawl under a rock and hide for a couple of years I'd do it, but I'm sure I'd be stung by scorpions. I fully expect to die some gruesome death that year, as I don't think I'll be able to withstand the abuse at age 60.

[amba]

holy shit . . .

[karen]

Those were my thoughts, exactly, amba.

Man- kinda does put last night's debate down the memory hole when compared, eh?

I'm glad you're still alive. I'm going to think of you as ~Sunshine~ from now on, but you have a geat mind, Outis:0).

[PatHMV]

Nice to know that you're willing to demand from others that which you won't give yourself, Ally. I myself don't think Sen. Obama "deserves" a fair shake, because he's shown himself over his career to be a calculating political opportunist. But I'll still give him a fair shake, because I know that my opinion of him is likely colored by my own political policy preferences. It's a pity that the vituperative opponents of President Bush won't do the same, and never would.

If you're interested, that self-righteousness, that assuredness that YOUR opinion of the "stupidity" of those who disagree with your political views is and must be valid, while the other sides similar opinions of your candidate must be irrational, is what really turns a lot of folks against extreme partisans on both sides.

[Outis]

Amba, Karen, it's a thing. What's really happening is that I'm experiencing just a little more crap in my life than most people do. But it gets bunched up into high concentrations. If it were spread out over time then it wouldn't look so bad.

But everyone gets sick. Almost everyone has at least some moderate injuries in their lives. Everyone dies. And all but the most unfortunate of us experience the deaths of loved ones. (The very unfortunate die too young to experience the pain of losing someone. Remember THAT the next time you're at a funeral - you're fortunate to feel the loss.) Most of us have had our hearts broken at least once, and many have their dreams trampled at some point in their lives.

Against all that? We're here. The joys of living are ours to relish.

Finally, I never have to look THAT hard to see people that have it worse than I do, both close to home and in the wider human experience. No matter what, I've been born into a time and place that makes almost every other time and place pale in comparison. They can't take THAT away from me until they invent working time-travel machines!

In the meantime I will bitch and moan about how crappy every twentieth year is. The next will be better. Then I can get back to bitching and moaning about less important things, such as the bad personnel decisions my favorite team makes in any given year.

[amba]

Let me add Outis's 11:43 to the honor roll. Not to mention Charlie's explaining.

[david]

Outis: I'm really sorry you're going through all that. Here's hoping the crap sandwich delivery guy gets lost on the way to your house.

[sail on]

Sorry RW, I went to bed before you posted your question. Yes, we can be dual citizens and vote/work/live/travel in either or in both countries. It was the US that didn't allow dual citizenship until the 1970s (I think). There are many advantages but also sticky tax issues. It works out OK if you live & work in Canada, because Canadian taxes are higher (to pay for our valuable subsidized health care) and the US grants us credit for taxes paid to Canada. Unless I earn over about $120,000 (haha) I don't owe US income tax but I must declare my Cdn. income & taxes paid so Uncle Sam can keep track of me.

[karen]

My brother married a gal from Quebec- and lived across the Boarder until his Landscaping business got rather large over here. It was ok travelwise, but as it got more difficult crossing the Boarder and his kids got older, they decided to come sown here and i think they are happy w/their decision.

Except the kids have lost most of their French. I wish my Dad had talked my Mom into raising us biligual. I'd love to know more than common swear words and my prayers. And you wonder why i can seem so extreme at times.

[Ally]

Thanks for the personal insults, Pat. That really elevates the conversation. I was trying to be honest about my own shortcomings. Guess that wasn't wise.

And I'm not a partisan. I'm an independent who happens to thoroughly disagree with those of you who see Obama in such a negative light. Never the twain shall meet, but he strikes me as a potentially transformational leader, and I enthusiastically support his candidacy.

So, let me reframe the question that sent you off the deep end: if Obama proves to be better than you expected, will you be able to admit it? Or are you so blinded by your dislike of him that you'll find reasons, a la Limbaugh, to tear him down no matter what?

I'm confident that if Obama turns out to be disappointing, I'll see it and acknowledge it. Had Bush turned out better than I anticipated, would I have been able to acknowledge it? We'll never know. He was even worse than I ever dreamed he could be.

By the way, I never called anyone who disagrees with me stupid, or even hinted at it. I just asked whether you'd be open-minded. Your vituperative response answered that question.

[amba]

I'm confident that if Obama turns out to be disappointing, I'll see it and acknowledge it.

Hasn't Obama already turned out to be disappointing?

[Outis]

Never the twain shall meet, but he strikes me as a potentially transformational leader, and I enthusiastically support his candidacy.

This is entirely the problem. Some of us don't want to be transformed, either in part or in whole. Especially not by government, which implicitly or explicitly holds a gun to our head.

[RW Rogers]

Ally, transformational leaders don't publicly ridicule ordinary Americans who happened to ask them a tough question, sick their organizational might to smear them them in the press, nor bring the power of the state to render them unemployed. Chicago pols may do so, but transformational leaders do not. What is being done right now to this guy Joe is yet one more example of the intolerance of dissent exhibited by Obama and his organization, the witch hunt that Obama's supporters actively engage in with Obama's tacit or covert support, the attempt to suppress free speech that characterizes the Obama campaign, and a foreboding of the intolerant, oppressive and imperial presidency we are about to endure.

[Ally]

Outis -- And when government checks out, we get the financial crisis. No thanks.

RW Rogers -- Apparently we live in different realities. You seem to be suggesting that when a candidate holds someone up as a paragon of American virtues, that the press should slavishly accept the spin and not examine who the guy really is? In any case, I don't think Joe comes off looking bad. I watched his press conference online, and though we probably disagree politically, I really liked the guy.

Both comments demonstrate that my fears are justified, that we are so polarized that people like you two will never even give Obama a chance to prove you wrong. You'll just slice reality in whatever way makes it fit into your preconceived notions.

[amba]

Ally -- if you're not too polarized yet, you'll like this. This guy is the most honest man on the right. Even if you didn't agree with him about 99% of what you were both saying, you could still talk to him. Always. And you'd still respect him.

[RW Rogers]

We don't live in different realities, Ally. That's as disingenuous a response as Reynolds's assertions that the McCain supporters posting comments here are racists. You apparently have a high tolerance for vindictive harassment of ordinary Americans for expressing their opinions. That does not reflect a different reality, Ally - that's a reflection of your personal ethics. Your support the intrusive invasion of the private lives of ordinary Americans in order to deflect criticism of public policy points is noted. Your lack of concern for the chilling effect of such tactics is noted.

[Ally]

RW Rogers --

Yes, we live in different realities because I don't even understand what the hell you're trying to say.

And talk about chilling -- what do you mean by "is noted?" Why the passive voice? Is noted by whom? You or some vast body of disapproving scolds? Or is a death squad going to appear at my door?

[RW Rogers]

There you go again, Ally. Changing the subject to portray yourself as victim. You are the one who is approving the public humiliation and intimidation ordinary Americans who ask questions, not me. I'm just acknowledging your justifications.

[Outis]

Outis -- And when government checks out, we get the financial crisis. No thanks.

If you are referring to the present financial crisis, that has more to do with the government being checked in than checked out. A curse upon the CRA and Sarbanes-Oxley, amongst many other programs.

[Outis]

Both comments demonstrate that my fears are justified, that we are so polarized that people like you two will never even give Obama a chance to prove you wrong. You'll just slice reality in whatever way makes it fit into your preconceived notions.

Given that you think the "Joe the Plumber" story is about a guy named Joe, and NOT Obama's response, I can see that you too will slice reality to fit your preconsceptions.

The problem with the Joe's question is that Obama came out and explicitly said he wanted "spread the wealth around". Trying to ruin the guy that asked the question is merely a diversion from the real story, which is Obama's actually stating that he wants to strip people of their property to satisfy his whims about "social justice".

[Ally]

McCain dragged the poor schmoe into the limelight, portraying him as the embodiment of all American virtues. The media did what the media does, which is often ugly, I'll agree. And somehow Obama gets the blame?

And raising taxes by what I've read is 3 percent on people making over 250k is hardly a socialistic redistribution of wealth, is it?