Debate Liveblog

Not feeling pretty, witty, or bright, so set the bar low for me too, please.  Thank you.

9:02:  There's Gwen Ifill, saying she made up the questions.  She's under scrutiny too, since she is not objective (supports Obama) and has a conflict of interest (a book on the black political breakthrough coming out on Inauguration Day).

Palin stalks onstage blows a sharp little kiss.  For some reason this makes me think:  "Walk like an Egyptian."

She asks "Can I call you Joe?"  Biden greets her graciously.

First question:  was the bailout the best or worst of DC?  Biden talks abstractly about "the middle class," Palin gives concrete examples of how people will be hurt:  many of us have investments and wonder if our money will still be there.  Each makes a pitch for his/her head of the ticket having ridden to the rescue in the crisis.

Biden brings up McCain's assertion that the "fundamentals of the economy are sound" and Palin explains, "He was talking to and about the American workforce, the greatest in the world."

Obama:  96 percent of his votes have been party line.  Can't prove his commitment to bipartisanship.  "With all due respect, I do respect your years in the Senate, but I think the American people are craving something different, that new energy . . . "

Palin makes a wonderful point:  let's do what our parents said and not live beyond our means.  "We have an opportunity to learn a heckuva lot of lessons from this and make sure we're not exploited or deceived again."

Biden:  We let Wall Street run wild . . . John McCain favored deregulation "on 20 different occasions."

Palin:  Barack had 94 opportunities to vote "on the people's side" and keep taxes down, but he voted to raise them 94 times.  Biden rejoinders that McCain also voted for tax increases, and that some of the bills Palin is referring to were procedural, not substantive.

She now is able to recite McCain's reform initiatives.  She is far more relaxed and "being herself," emphasizing her record.

Tax jousting.  Biden says no one making under $240,000 a year got any kind of tax break under Bush.  "The middle class is the economic engine.  They deserve the tax breaks.  The super-wealthy are doing fine, they won't be paying more than under Reagan."

Palin pounces with "redistribution of wealth" and says small businesses will be paying higher taxes, leading to fewer jobs

She's armed with details of McCain's health care plan, the $5000 credit, "budget neutral, doesn't cost the government anything" unlike Obama's "mandate" which will be paid for by the government.  Palin cheerfully says, seeing as how the government's been runnin' things lately, you don't want them runnin' your health care! 

(I can't do this, I've completely missed Biden's response, Jacques is asking me insistent questions about his home village that indicate he's living about 50 years in the past right now.  I'm missing the debate.)

"McCain doesn't tell one thing to one group and another thing to another group."

Energy plan Obama voted for gave oil companies big tax breaks.  "I had to take on those oil companies in Alaska."

Biden says when the tax breaks were separated out from a bill that stressed alternative energy, Obama voted against them, McCain voted for them.  Biden speaks for a windfall profits tax, such as Palin pushed for in Alaska, says McCain wants to give them more tax cuts.

Palin's first adrenaline rush must be burning off; she's starting to race her motor and scramble her words a bit -- we can't let predatory lenders, like Putin, "rear that head of abuse."  "It's a toxic mess on Main Street that's affecting Wall Street."  

Palin doesn't want to argue about the causes of climate change; Biden insists it's man-made and that you need to know that to come up with solutions.  McCain has voted against clean energy sources, wind, solar, biofuels.  We should invest in clean coal technology and export it.  Drill we must, but it will take 10 years to get a drop of oil from it. 

"Drill, baby, drill" is music to Palin's ears.  Americans across the land are chanting that because we're "hungry for domestic sources of energy."  But the difference now here is really dwindling.  Palin supports capping carbon emissions.  Biden accepts drilling and is for clean coal and safe nuclear.  Mainly only a difference in emphasis is left.  

Gay relationships:  Biden says the Constitution calls for equal benefits as relates to rights of property and visitation.  Palin says "I am very tolerant and I have a very diverse family and friends."  The difference has dwindled here too.  Biden and Obama do not support gay marriage.  Palin says she and McCain would not do anything to hinder visitation and property rights. 

She's doing fine.  

Biden points out that Bush and Maliki are on the same page as Obama now; he says only McCain is not. He also says repeatedly that McCain also voted to cut off troop funding (a bill Biden had promoted) because the bill had a timeline in it.  "We will end this war.  For John McCain, there's no end in sight."

Palin:  "Your plan is a white flag of surrender in Iraq, and that's not what our troops need to hear today."  She reminds Biden that he'd said he'd be proud to run with or against McCain and that he'd said Obama wasn't ready to be president!  It's almost as if she's trying to peel Biden off from Obama and to say they have more in common with each other than Biden has with Obama -- such as sons in Iraq.

Unstable Pakistan, nuclear Iran:  which is more dangerous? 

Biden:  Iraq is not the central front in terror.  If a new terror attack came, it would come from the hills of Waziristan.  A stable government in Pakistan is paramount.  Help them build schools to compete for hearts and minds with the 7000 madrassas built along the border.

Palin:  Petraeus and Osama agreed on only one thing:  Iraq was the central front.  Palin pronounces "Ahmadinejad" flawlessly.

Obama's statement that he'd meet enemy leaders without preconditions "Beyond naivete, beyond poor judgment."  Biden:  "He did not say that. . . . McCain doesn't realize that Ahmadinejad does not control the security apparatus in Iran."

Biden is actually on the defensive.  Palin is practicing aikido on him by largely agreeing with him.  Both campaigns are now competing for the center, and at least on foreign policy and energy, their positions have become variations on common themes, with differences in emphasis.  They probably differ more on economics and health care -- and the larger or smaller role of government -- than on anything else.

Biden "would not have joined the ticket" if he hadn't been sure Obama was solid on Israel. 

If you listen, they differ most strongly about where to point the blame for past failures and about their lead candidates' precise records -- all really peripheral to policy and the future.  The huge ideological chasm between them is on taxation and on the role of government in managing the economy and social services like education and health care. 

Palin:  the surge principles that have worked in Iraq need to be implemented in Afghanistan as well. 

Biden:  Our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principles of Iraq will not work in Afghanistan.  "We spent more money in 3 weeks of combat in Iraq than we spent in 7 years, 6 1/2 years in Afghanistan."

Palin:  "McClellan [sic] did not say definitively that the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan.  The counterinsurgency strategy can."

Biden:  Lugar and Obama and I have been calling for more money and troops in Afghanistan.  McCain said two years ago that we'd already succeeded there.  

Intervention?  Biden ironically says "The American people have a stomach for success."  He's proud of his stand on Kosovo.  We need to do more in Darfur.

Biden said he opposed the war but voted to give the President war powers.  Palin:  "It's so obvious that I'm a Washington outsider, one who doesn't understand the way you guys do things.  Americans are cravin' that straight talk . . . why did you vote for it if you were against it?"

Palin:  "Government, get out of my way if you're going to mandate more things on me and take more of my money."  We're going to create jobs, reform Washington and Wall Street, and win the war.

"Say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again [a Reagan echo] pointing backward to the Bush years."

Palin says that saying she wasn''t sure what the VP did was "a lame attempt at a joke; evidently nobody got it."  She's done a nice job of making light fun of herself and turning her outsider naïveté into an asset.

In the comments it's reported that Althouse thinks people are saying "Palin's fine, she's competent . . . *yawn* let's go to bed," or watch something more exciting.  The suspense here was watching with bated breath to see if she could hold her own.  She has totally held her own.  So people are like, "There's nothing happening here. False alarm.  No train wreck."

"Uncommitted Ohio voters" who are wired for salivation or whatever the hell it is they measure are responding somewhat more positively to Biden than to Palin.  Biden almost broke down when talking about his first family's car accident.  The listeners' estimation of Palin rises when she talks bipartisanly.  But the line seems to dive whenever the speaker changes, then to rise gradually, then dive again when the other person starts a turn.  

Only in the last minutes does Biden start talking about judicial philosophy and his opposition to Bork.  He also tells an affecting anecdote about Mike Mansfield giving him a different view of Jesse Helms. 

Palin says she's made bipartisan appointments as governor, and that she has a family that's very diverse politically as well as in other ways.

She's very sweet and friendly to Biden.  And he reciprocates.  She appreciates not having the "filter of the MSM telling people what they just heard."  If you listened to these two candidates, you could just vote calmly on ideology without rancor.

Comments

[Melinda]

This had better be good. I've torn myself away from a mini-marathon of "House."

[Melinda]

"Can I call you Joe?" Good move.

[maria]

I'm at the fire station ... and a TV ... for this one. And I'm about ready to go back to House.

[Melinda]

Althouse just posted "8:27: I'll bet a lot of people are tuning out about now, satisfied that Palin is competent and smart, but pretty bored."

[karen]

Amba-- pretty, witty... all that matters is that u're u.

[Melinda]

Either they're both doing well or I'm so tired I don't know the difference anymore.

[karen]

She's getting to him a tad. I think she's got a good memory.

[Melinda]

They made it through the debate, and so did we.

[karen]

G'nite!!

[karen]

Oh!! Amba? For someone that has a full plate- you hit on all cylinders!! Thank you.

[Melinda]

Palin: "Government, get out of my way

Or as Tina Fey will put it, "Government, shoo! Get outta here."

[Ron]

Amba! Magnificent live-blogging! Put your feet up, here have some soup! Maybe a knish! A cold compress! Thanks for doing so well...

[Donna B.]

Really, Amba, an excellent live debate post. I tried doing it in 2004 and simply could not. It's hard.

Biden really is a likable guy, whether you agree with him or not.

(He's sort of like Texas weather -- if you don't agree with him now, just wait a while, he'll have another opinion!)

I thought they both did okay.

[RW Rogers]

In the end, people don't vote the bottom of the ticket but the top. After tonight, there is no reason to expect them to act any different this time. As VP candidates go, Palin did what she was supposed to do, which was do no harm, sound credible while not doing it, and get in a few jabs at the opposition. Both nominees met that standard. McCain's shortcomings as a candidate and the tattered reputation of the Bush Administration when combined with the current economic climate pose what I believe are insurmountable obstacles to a McCain victory. The sad truth is that people like Michael Reynolds have stooped to non-stop slander, character assassination, and morally bankrupt insinuations for no legitimate purpose. Long-term, it is to be hoped that whatever remains of their reputations suffers as a result of their imprudent invective.

[michael Reynolds]

Randy:

Your analysis of the race is correct. Your attack on me has the failing I often observe in my children: a convenient confusion of time sequence.

The right wing had gone to all-attack, all the time long, long, long before I wrote my first unkind word about McCain. As demonstrated pretty convincingly, I sat on my doubts about McCain's mental sharpness for six months. Even after conservative blogger Rick Moran said the same things I was sensing, I didn't post.

This was a war started by the Republicans, Randy. Not by me. I have spent years saying complimentary things about McCain. More so than the average conservative blog.

Long before I said an unkind word about McCain or had even heard of Palin I was on StubbornFacts and Rightwingnuthouse asking them when they would let up on their endless, obsessive attacks on Obama and actually say something nice about their own candidate.

Even today these blogs barely have a kind word for McCain and spend all their time blasting Obama.

The same has been largely true even of this blog, I'm sorry to say.

Attack Obama, attack Obama, attack Obama, and when fire is finally returned, people like you, Randy, star squealing. Exactly like my kids who get very very upset over the unfortunately unidimensional relationship between cause and effect.

As you sow, so shall you reap. Decades of Atwater and Rove and their lesser blogospheric acolytes. And now you bust out the tears. Boo hoo, those mean Democrats. Spare me.

[Meade]

Maybe guys like Michael Reynolds are just envious because they can't be Todd Palin .

[RW Rogers]

As you sow, so shall you reap. Here's hoping you do.

You never engage on issues Michael. Only personalities. Either the candidates or the person on a blog you disagree with. It's always about denigrating the opponent.

[karen]

"McCain's shortcomings as a candidate and the tattered reputation of the Bush Administration when combined with the current economic climate pose what I believe are insurmountable obstacles to a McCain victory."

Only if you don't vote for them, RW. ;0)

[Liza]

"Maybe guys like Michael Reynolds are just envious because they can't be Todd Palin ."

A perfect example of what Michael has described. Sad.

[michael Reynolds]

Randy:

Bullshit.

I have been consistently complimentary of Callimachus who I disagreed with all the time. With Rick Moran, likewise. I've never shown anything but respect for Annie with whom I disagree on a whole host of issues including the presidential campaign. I have the highest regard for Dave Schuler who is certainly to the right of me. Transplanted Lawyer and I get along great although he's for McCain.

On the other side, I've never had a kind word for MoveOn.

Your point is factually incorrect. Feel free to check with any of the people I mentioned.

[wj]

Michael, I'm afraid that you just don't understand. Perhaps you are incapable of it?

If you act like your idol (Mencken) and are caustic about both sides, then obviously you are not being fair. Because if you don't follow the "correct" line, you are, by definition, unfair. And when you take exception to those who attempt, in all good heart, to correct your unfairness, you are doubly unfair. Why can't you understand that, and just roll over???

[Outis]

Biden says no one making under $240,000 a year got any kind of tax break under Bush.

Wow, I didn't know I made more than $240,000 dollars a year! But I must have, because I benefitted from Bush tax cuts. Damn, now I want to know who stole all my money....

[RW Rogers]

Mentioning a couple of rare exceptions to your behavior in recent months does nothing more than highlight your dishonest and hypocritical nature Michael.

[RW Rogers]

If anyone is watching the House vote today, you might enjoy playing Banker Bingo while listening to various commentators.

[amba]

To me, the question is whether we will be able to recover from the mutual vituperation. Whoever is elected, will there be gracious winners and gracious losers? Will there be any hope of reaching across the wound in the body politic some on both sides have been happily hacking away at? We can't go on as we have under the baby-boomer presidents -- one- sided limping along, crippled by dragging a hostile parasitic twin.

[RW Rogers]

Here's a gem from last night's debate that some people would prefer no one talk about. After 35 years in the Senate, Joe Biden still doesn't know the answer. Biden's foreign policy record shouldn't inspire confidence either.

[Outis]

Only in the last minutes does Biden start talking about judicial philosophy and his opposition to Bork.

Opposition to Bork - it's good to see that the Obama/Biden ticket is all about THE FUTURE, and isn't concerned about refighting battles from decades ago. Thank God for new blood.

[RW Rogers]

I agree that there is much to be concerned about WRT both Obama's and Biden's stated positions on judicial appointments, Otis. But we're not supposed to talk about such things.

[Outis]

Here's a gem from last night's debate that some people would prefer no one talk about. After 35 years in the Senate, Joe Biden still doesn't know the answer.

This shouldn't be a surprise. Biden is a complete idiot. I don't think he ever had all that many higher cognitive functions, but any brain cells used for those purposes were clearly destroyed when they dug too deep for the hair plugs.

[Melinda]

It's refreshing to see Democrats not roll over for a change.

[Liza]

" Will there be any hope of reaching across the wound in the body politic?.." Nope. Or at least not as long as either side is seeing the opposition as a "hostile parasitic twin" or regards any discerning views as a manifestation of a [negative epithet of your choice] nature.

[RW Rogers]

The big news today will probably be House passage of the bailout bill, but the more important news may end up being Wells Fargo's purchase of Wachovia without federal guarantees. Citibank had previously agreed to purchase it provided it received massive amounts of federal aid and now it is complaining about not getting something for next to nothing at taxpayer expense. And so it goes....

[Melinda]

...and so I will be turning my house upside-down for stuff to sell on eBay or give to thrift shops for the deduction.

[amba]

RWR: without you, I, for one, wouldn't know anything. Your links are a daily education.

[RW Rogers]

There have been some interesting stories abut AIG this week. The Telegraph had a story yesterday about the French government, concerned that its entire financial system was on the brink, begging the US government for the AIG deal. AIG has reportedly used almost $62 billion of their guarantees and are now paying it back down. Story today that the company will actually emerge as a going concern, albeit a much smaller one focused entirely on traditional insurance operations. Don't have time to look for the links at the moment, but it is a fascinating sidenote that may bode well for the entire bailout scheme WRT: time & money involved.

[amba]

I'll say. That was quick.

[RW Rogers]

OTOH, the story about California (and others) possibly needing a giant federal helping hand through Christmas is a real concern, according to some informed sources I've heard from.

[RW Rogers]

Finally, take a look for news about Greece and Ireland guaranteeing deposits in their countries within the past couple of days. The problem with that is that they are part of the Euro zone and such guarantees aren't supposed to be part of the package. Other countries are not happy. A number of giant European banks in Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and the UK have failed this past week. (The average European bank is three to 5 times more leveraged than the average US bank.)

[huxley]

Will there be any hope of reaching across the wound in the body politic some on both sides have been happily hacking away at?

Well, there's always hope, but we seem to be in the midst of a cold civil war and I suspect it will take a generation or two to get over it.

The two sides are mostly not talking to each other this year. At my church, except for a couple flare-ups of Palin bashing and an earnest appeal from the pastor that everyone should work for a candidate instead of huddling away in their cliques, blogs and email lists vituperating, political discussion has ceased.

I find AmbivaBlog interesting in that it is one of the few places I've seen where there is more or less decent conversation with representation on both sides.

For a humorous example of one of my visits to a blue blog, see David Brin's blog. Once upon a time I loved Brin's science fiction.

[amba]

Hux: maybe you need to find a new church??

Actually, I have to admire you for not doing so.

[huxley]

Amba -- I fell in love with my church at a writer's retreat the church sponsored. I was astonished by how many bright, creative, and kind people were members, so I started attending and eventually became a member myself. It is a very special place with a beautiful building and an amazing liturgy.

Although it is also a predominately progressive place, it has resisted--because there are a few highly placed conservative members--becoming an explicitly leftist church.

Truth to tell, I am a social liberal, still progressive. If I went to a church that lined up with my Republican stances, I would still feel out of place.

I've invested several years at my church, I have not been shunned as I have been in other progressive venues, so I may as well stay.

[Outis]

Huxley, why would you like Brin's writing any less now? Just ignore the politics.

But it's funny that Brin seems to think that Goldwater Republicans will suddenly become Obama Scoialists if THEY JUST PULL THEIR HEADS OUT OF THE SAND! BUSH EVIL! OBAMA MESSIAH! KUMBAYA, MOTHERFUCKERS!

[Steve Kzarzki]

Folks,
I just thought the moderator didn't do a good job yday. period.

Btw, I just read another blog on yday's debate that I thought was brilliant. Check it out if you get a chance

http://politicsontheram-page.blogspot.com/

[huxley]

Huxley, why would you like Brin's writing any less now? Just ignore the politics.

Outis -- I can do that with many of my favorite artists, e.g. Bob Dylan, Rickie Lee Jones, Lou Reed, Patti Smith. I can still enjoy Alec Baldwin in "Hunt for Red October" and Matt Damon in the Bourne movies.

But in Brin's books there was a such a strong message of rational collegiality, of uplifting others or saving civilization because it was the liberal, decent thing to do, that when I encountered Brin in person as a hissing, spitting, take-no-prisoners ideologue, it was just too jarring. I couldn't relate that person to my idealized image of the author of the Uplift books.

Plus that was one of the worst personal attacks, by Brin and his fanboy acolytes, I have experienced online.

KUMBAYA, MOTHERFUCKERS! ... about sums Brin up. Thanks for the laugh!

[amba]

KUMBAYA, MOTHERFUCKERS!

LOL. I want that on a T-shirt! Hey Outis, fuck employment! Entrepreneurship! You could team up with RW and his bracelets for foreclosed families . . . (sorry, Karen).

Seriously, we could use some funny politiphernalia.

Huxley: Geez, you're as mixed up as I am! (In your own way, I hasten to add.)

[Outis]

Huxley, I guess I get what you're saying. But I still separate the books from the person. (And the Uplift books were damned good. The first trilogy, anyway.)

Amba, right now I'm getting physically ill everytime I see a politician on TV, so I'm not cut out for that. Besides RW and I could never work together, as he thinks I'm somewhat worse than Michael Reynolds. I just don't think he realizes that I used to be someone else.

[RW Rogers]

Outis: You're right and you're wrong.

[karen]

Are you freaking kidding me? Worse than Michael? Lord, i pegged you for both living in neighbouring cardboard boxes(my funny paradigm-ing). RW- why?

on the 2nd note-- i think i've always known, as well, but-- i always reserve the right to be wrong(noted in the box thing, above).

Damn.

[Outis]

The "right and wrong" is confusing. I presume Randy means that I'm correct that we can't work together. I don't know what the "wrong" is: Am I wrong that he thinks I'm worse than Reynolds, or is it that he does know I used to be Icepick?

Karen, Randy has accused me of being nothing more than a partisan hack. What's funny is that right now he's more partisan than I am, as I dislike the candidates (and parties) almost equally at the moment. I tend to talk about Obama more because I'm just tired of McCain. He's been a part of my political awareness for 20 years or so. He's dull. On this I agree with Reynolds: Obama is the exciting new flavor! Of course, I think Obama's a mix of New Coke and vomit, while Reynolds believes that Obama is an expensive martini. (Note: I hate martinis, too.)

[amba]

Odd, Outis, since I think you and Randy basically agree on being disgusted by both parties but marginally more so by the Democrats.