Debate Liveblog.

Why not; it'll make me pay attention.  I could be making my decision about who to vote for tonight.

8:58  CNN starts out by saying this is not really a debate.  Why require the candidates to give two- or three-minute answers?  Why not let them sit at a table together and thrash things out for two hours, as Sarkozy did with his opponent?  Among other things, says Amanpour, it was "riveting television."  European style.  American TV is terrified of anything without MTV-style jump cuts.

9:03:  Applause has been outlawed.  That could be a First Amendment violation.

9:04:  Obama:  "Y'know, we are at a defining moment in our history."  Yeah, we know.

He lays out his plan, which is familiar.  Attacks McCain as a Republican foe of regulation.

9:06:  McCain says Sen. Kennedy is in the hospital; the newscasters have told us he is already back home watching the debate (he suffered a "mild seizure").  McCain's language is bipartisan.  "We have seen Republicans and Democrats sitting down and negotiating."  McCain seems oddly short of breath.

9:08:  says "Talk to each other."  Obama:  "How did we get in this mess in the first place?  Two years ago I warned . . . "  "How is it that we shredded so many regulations, we did not set up a 21st century framework . . . "  He says the problem is an ideology that all regulation is bad.

9:10:  McCain:  "I also warned . . . a lot of us saw this train wreck coming.  But there's also the question of responsibility."  He tells an anecdote about Eisenhower, writing two letters the night before the Normandy invasion, a letter of congratulation and a letter of resignation." 

9:11:  Obama:  Reigning ideology has focused on what's good for Wall Street, not what's good for Main Street. 

McNeil asks Obama to address McCain.  McCain:  "What, are you afraid I can't hear him?"  He's trying to get them to talk to each other in this isolating, each-on-his-own-planet-podium format.

So far neither of them has said anything exceptional.  We must take care of the homeowner, the little guy.  America's a great country.  We need more responsibility. 

9:14: McCain:  we have to cut government spending.  He attacks his own party.  "Earmarks as a gateway drug."  Money to study the DNA of bears in Montana -- 3 million dollars.  (As a science editor, I know that was not necessarily misspent.)  McCain is repeating a lot of his stock phrases:  "We went to change Washington and Washington changed us."  "You will know their names."  "I was not Miss Congeniality in the U.S. Senate."

He says Obama has sought $932 million in pork-barrel earmarks.  Go to the website of Citizens Against Government Waste.

Obama rejoinders that he suspended asking for any earmarks till the process is cleaned up, and that lobbyists are often the ones asking for earmarks "but that was not the case was me."

McCain says Obama suspended earmarks only after he was running for president.  He didn't see the light

McCain becomes animated saying his career has been devoted to fighting this. 

Obama:  "Eliminating earmarks alone is not a recipe for how we're going to get the middle class back on track" -- "the people who are strugglin'." 

McCain:  second highest business taxes in the world, 35%.  Irish businesses pay 11%.  No wonder people go overseas.  He wants to cut those taxes.

"Senator Obama is a recent convert after requesting 932 million in earmarks."  "The worst thing we could possibly do is raise taxes on anyone."  

Obama is angry; stammering with indignation. 

Now, dueling benefits for working families.  Obama says he'll cut taxes for 95 percent of us; McCain promises a $5000 tax credit for health insurance.

Obama:  business taxes are high on paper, but there are so many loopholes, many supported by McCain, that business pay the lowest effective tax rate.  And McCain will tax healthcare, via the employer.

Obama:  Oil company profits:  they're getting the tax cut.  That means others will not.  The energy bill currently on the floor has good things, and some things McCain wants, including offshore drilling, but McCain opposes it because it strips out the tax cuts for oil companies.

Obama is speaking more forcefully and directly than usual.  He says we won't be able to do everything he thinks should be done, but there are certain things we have to do:  energy independence (leaning on alternative sources and conservation), health care, invest in science and tech and education to stay competitive, make sure college is affordable.  Mend the infrastructure, including broadband.  Make programs efficient.

McCain:  We must cut spending.  Obama has the most liberal voting record -- "hard to reach across the aisle from that far to the left."  Eliminate ethanol subsidies!  (Yeah!  Obama as an Illinois senator is indentured to ethanol.)  Defense spending is inefficient and corrupt.  "I know how to do that."  He killed a $6.9 billion deal between Boeing and DOD.

McNeil hears them both saying their plans haven't changed as a result of the financial crisis. 

McCain suggests a spending freeze on everything but defense, care of veterans, and entitlements.

Obama:  "You're using a hatchet where you need a scalpel." . . . Early childhood education vs. Medicare subsidies.  Money sent to Iraq when Iraq has a surplus.  We will have to cut spending, but we have to decide what our values are, who we're fighting for.  $300 bn in tax cuts for people who don't need them; cutting health care which is hammering average people . . .

McCain:  I want to ake sure we're not handing the health care system over to the Federal government.  I want families and their doctors to make their decisions.

Obama:  "You voted for almost all of his budgets. . . . You're going to lead on controlling spending?"

MCain:  "Not Miss Congeniality:  I have opposed the president on spending, climate change, torture, Guantanamo Bay . . . I'm a maverick and now I have a partner who's a good maverick too."

Lessons of Iraq? 

McCain:  You cannot have a failed strategy that causes you almost to lose a conflict.  The war was mishandled -- I fought for a change of strategy. . . . This strategy has succeeded.  If we'd left, there would have been increased sectarian violence, increased Iranian influence, a wider war . . . We will come home

Obama:  We have a fundamental difference.  Should we have gone in in the first place?  I stood up and opposed this war 6 years ago . . . we didn't know how much it was going to cost, what our exit strategy would be, we hadn't finished the job in Afghanistan . . . I thought it was going to be a distraction. . . . We took our eye off the ball.  We are still spending $10 billion a month when they have a surplus.  We should never hesitate to use military force to protect the American people

McCain:  The next president of the U.S. will not have to address the question of whether we should have gone into Iraq.  He will have to address how we leave, when we leave, and what we leave behind.  Obama said the surge would not work.  Now he's conceded but still says he would oppose the surge if he had to decide that today!  Obama didn't go to Iraq and never requested a meeting with Gen. Petraeus.  

Obama:  But Biden did.

McCain:  "I'm afraid Sen. McCain doesn't understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy."  He was in Iraq and the soldiers told him, "Let us win.  We don't want our kids coming back here."  Obama "did the incredible thing of cutting off funds to the troops."

Obama:  They both voted against troop funding bills over the question of a timetable:  yes or no.  The question is, Was this wise?  Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan.  We don't have enough troops in

They argue over what Admiral Mullen said.  That Obama's desire for a timetable was dangerous?  Or that "a precipitous withdrawal" was dangerous?

McCain:  Petraeus and bin Laden agree that Iraq is the central front.  

More troops in Afghanistan?  Obama:  yes, and soon.  And we don't have the troops.  We have 4X more troops in Iraq, where there was no al Qaeda before we went in . . .

Obama at least seems sure of himself on this issue.

McCain:  "I won't repeat the mistake I regret enormously" . . . after we helped them kick the Soviets out we washed our hands of the region.  "I'm not prepared to threaten [Pakistan] . . . you don't say that out loud.  If you have to do things you have to do things."  Suddenly the roles are reversed; Obama is the reckless hawk, McCain the diplomat portraying Pakistan as a fragile ally.  We're going to have to help the Pakistanis go into these border areas and win the people's cooperation.  But we will have to use the counterinsurgency strategy we used in Iraq.  Petraeus is now in command.  "I know how to work with Pakistan and I would not threaten to attack them." 

Obama:  "I did not threaten to attack Pakistan.  If we have bin Laden in our sights, we should go in and take him out."  He agrees that presidents need to be prudent in what they say and agrees that it's difficult.  "For ten years we coddled Musharraf, alienated the Pakistani population because we were anti-democratic . . . a 20th century mindset:  "he's a dictator, but he's our dictator."

McCain:  "I don't think Sen. Obama understands that there was a failed state in Pakistan when Musharraf took over."  McCain goes back to his early days in Congress voting against Reagan, whom he so admired, sending Marines into Lebanon, and turning out to be right.  Supported Gulf War, supported Bosnia -- "the right thing to do."  Supported Kosovo.  It was the right thing to do because genocide and ethnic cleansing are unacceptable.  "I have a record of being involved in these national security issues" that involved the greatest responsibility:  sending young people into combat.  

McCain says mothers of dead soldiers keep asking him not to let their sons have died in vain.  He says he knows how hard it is for an army to recover from losing a war.

McCain has a bracelet from a pro-war mother; Obama has one from an antiwar mother.

Obama:  "It is not true that you have consistently been concerned about Afghanistan."

McCain:  "You might think he would've gone to Afghanistan. . . . I've visited Afghanistan, I've traveled to Waziristan.  We will succeed in Afghanistan but we need the new strategy.  Gen. Petraeus has said we will lose in Iraq if we follow Sen. Obama's strategy of a set date of withdrawal."

Iran.

McCain:  "It's an existential threat to the state of Israel and a threat to other countries in the region that will feel required to acquire nuclear weapons as well."  He has proposed a "league of democracies" that could impose painful sanctions on Iran that could affect their behavior.  

Obama:  the Republican guard is a terrorist organization.  But the war in Iraq has strengthened Iran.  McCain is right:  we cannot tolerate a nuclear Iran.  We do need tougher sanctions. We're going to need some cooperation from countries that are not democracies -- Russia, China -- tough direct diplomacy is a major difference with McCain.  Punishing people by not talking to them hasn't worked -- in North Korea, etc.

McCain:  he would sit down with Ahmadinejad, Chavez, and Castro without precondition.  That would legitimize and give a propaganda platform to a person who is espousing the obliteration of Israel.  (McCain has trouble saying "Ahmadinejad" and "perestroika," but who wouldn't?)

Reagan wouldn't sit down with

Obama:  "Ahmadinejad is not the most powerful person in Iran . . . I reserve the right to meet with anyone at any time and place of my choosing if it will help keep America safe. . . . Kissinger just said that we should meet with Iran without preconditions . . . and he's one of your advisors!"  By "without preconditions," he means they may not have complied with everything we want.  We stopped talking to N. Korea; they quadrupled their nuclear arsenal.  When we reengaged we at least made some progress.

They trade jabs:  Obama mentions McCain's Spain gaffe (there's a "My Fair Lady" rhyme in there somewhere); McCain says he wont' set the White House visitor's schedule now -- "I don't even have a seal yet."

McCain:  the North Koreans have broken every agreement they ever made.  

The Iran segment is a "You said this," "no I didn't" exchange.

Sorry.  This is a boring-ass liveblog.  It's going so fast all I can do is listen.  I feel like I'm taking shorthand.

Russia.

Obama:  Russia's actions in Georgia were unacceptable.  We must affirm the fledgling democracies in the region.  We have to insis that Georgia and Ukraine can join NATO if they meet the conditions.  We also cannot return to a Cold War footing with Russia.  Nuclear proliferation, loose nukes that could fall into al Qaeda's hands, "an area I've led on in the Senate, working with a Republican, Dick Lugar."

McCain:  Obama first said "both sides ought to show restraint" -- "a little bit of naïveté there."  It was about the pipeline from the Caspian.  He lets it be known that he has spent a lot of time in Tbilisi and has been in Abkhazia.  "Watch Ukraine.  This has a lot to do with Ukraine, with the Crimea . . ."

Obama mostly agrees, but says McCain has misrepresented his initial reaction.

Obama:  "In 26 years, Sen. McCain voted 23 times against alternative energy sources."

Now they are talking over each other

Chances of another 9/11-type attack:

McCain:  Much less than the day after 9/11.  We're a safer nation but still not safe.

He and Joe Lieberman wanted a 9/11 commission; they were stymied by the administration till the families stormed Washington.  Most if its recommendations have been written into law -- bipartisan.  Need more humint.  Trained interrogators "so we don't ever torture a prisoner again." 

Obama:  "We're safer in some ways."  Long way to go:  chemical sites, transit, ports.  Biggest threat is a terrorist getting hold of a suitcase nuke.  We're spending billions on missile defense, and we need it, but we're only spending a few hundred million on nuclear proliferation.  And we must focus on al Qaeda. . . . the way we are perceived in the world.  "I will restore America's standing in the world."  We are less respected now. 

Gives McCain credit on the torture issue as something that undermines our long-term security.

McCain's repeated refrain:  "Sen. Obama doesn't quite understand . . . " He comes full circle to how Iraq is the key.  "All the fragile sacrifice we've made . . . "  But isn't this issue of a "fixed withdrawal" somewhat moot now -- because the Iraqis themselves have asked for it, and because Obama himself has said he will take counsel from the generals on the ground?  McCain too seems to be looking backward, though not as far back as the beginning of the war -- rather, to Obama's pre-surge, get-out-of-Iraq, base-pleasing position, which has now become irrelevant.

McCain:  "I don't believe Sen. Obama has the knowledge or the experience . . . "  "We've seen this stubbornness before, in this administration, [now he's comparing OBAMA to Bush!  ha!] failing to acknowledge that he was wrong about the surge shows me that we need more flexibility in a President of the United States. [Nice switch on the age issue!]. . . I don't need any on-the-job training.  I'm ready to go right now."  

Now CNN promises to fact check what both of them were saying:  this is right up my alley!

Someone said "This race just got tougher to decide on."  I agree.  Obama gave a considerably stronger performance than I anticipated.  He was forceful, confident, and knowledgeable.  The difference is that his knowledge seems more thought-out and conceptual while McCain's is canny and experience-based. 

Comments

[Melinda]

I was watching it on CNN and I got tired of watching that continually-scrolling "audience reaction" graph running along the bottom.

I switched to NY1 where it's just the time and temp.

[maria]

I'm listening on NPR, and I am half-glad not to have to watch and half-wondering what I am missing in posture and expression.

[Melinda]

"Earmarks as a gateway drug." I like that one.

[Melinda]

Tax cuts for 95% of working families. I'll have to read up on that one.

[Melinda]

McCain gets extra points for using the word "festooned" in a sentence.

[karen]

We'll have to design Mc a seal of his very own now.

Althouse has a drinking game going on and the words chosen aren't even being used much.

"Look" would have been a good one.
"Let's be clear", would have been another phrase.

[karen]

Mc seems to be gaining energy as he speaks of energy(Russian). Finally. He did seem a tad off at 1st, didn't he? Probably trying not to lose his temper:0).

[karen]

What is it w/B. Obama and the 60's? "We have to make them(other countries around the world) like us?"

Freaking "A"!!

[Melinda]

Okay, I'm back to CNN. So now the table of political consultants is gonna hold up numbers like it's the Olympics.

[Melinda]

Karen, I don't know if it's "like us" as much as look up to and respect us, which many people feel they're not doing anymore.

[Melinda]

CNN Guy: Two defining phrases in tonight's debate: McCain's "You don't understand" and Obama's "John is right."

[karen]

Could be. He just seemed a little like Sally Fields to me. I wonder how many folks STILL come here for an education and how much easier it is now than in his Dad's time- for a superior education.

PS- i really don't like Joe Biden. He did grill Petraeus when he was in DC for hearing on Iraq-- and i couldn't believe the disrespect and the rude, snooty behaviour. And how polite Petraeus was in answering "Sir", etc.

If the Pubs lose- i'll support my new President(because i'm an American 1st)- but, i'll be scared for the future of our country.

[amba]

Maria: Posture and expression were predictable, so you didn't miss much. In their interactions with each other, McCain was condescending and Obama was indignant. In their disquisitions on the issues, McCain was soft-spoken, stressed his personal experience, and got in some good digs (like that Obama's stubborn refusal to admit he'd been wrong on the surge reminded him of "this administration"). Obama was more firm and forceful in defending his positions than you might have expected. Obama is vulnerable on his record (they both are, of course, being politicians), which is why I'm interested in the fact-check part. Is McCain really distorting what Obama said, as Obama claims, or is Obama fudging his record?

[RW Rogers]

There is no reason to believe that CNN is capable of producing an honest check of the facts stated by either candidate in this debate.

Now that we know that both men are wearing bracelets, can we expect an upsurge in that niche market? Will bracelets be the must buy item of the holiday season? Maybe we can market bracelets of unemployed Lehman Bros. workers or foreclosure notice recipients and wear them until they get a new job or a new house as the case may be.

[Tom Strong]

Obama gave a considerably stronger performance than I anticipated.

I didn't catch the whole thing (and mostly heard it on radio), but I thought he was terrible. He seemed leaden, repetitive, and heavily reliant on standardized Democratic pabulum. Admittedly I tend to read debates differently from many people, but in a week when McCain's chances seemed to be cratering, it seemed like Obama was doing everything possible to keep him in it.

Now that we know that both men are wearing bracelets, can we expect an upsurge in that niche market?

LOL! Next thing we know, the new trend will be mangles.

[Melinda]

Maybe we can market bracelets of unemployed Lehman Bros. workers or foreclosure notice recipients

LOL!

Zachary Paul Sire called it "Bracelet Gate 08."

[amba]

Tom: really interesting, since you were probably somewhat more predisposed to like Obama than I was. I wonder if the difference is watching vs. listening. There was the same disconnect about Michelle Obama's speech at the convention: I talked to people who watched who liked it (myself included) and people who listened who hated it.

How did McCain come across in audio only? He is unembarrassed about repeating his familiar stock phrases that we've heard so many times, as if he knows familiarity is reassuring.

[Donna B.]

Maybe I'm alone in that they both annoyed me. McCain for not pursuing some openings that Obama created and Obama for outright lies.

There is no way that any tax plan can cut taxes for 95% of Americans. More than 5% of Americans pay no tax at all!

I do not like Obama's tax plan because it will raise taxes on my children who are definitely what I consider middle class. It will, however, lower my taxes as a retiree. $100 for me versus each of my children paying $500 more?

No thanks. They need the money to pay for my nursing home room with a view.

[Ron]

Obama mentions McCain's Spain gaffe (there's a "My Fair Lady" rhyme in there somewhere)

As I said at Althouse: "McCain in Palin's plane still isn't sure who's running Spain!"

[amba]

Who else would I count on!!

[Tom Strong]

How did McCain come across in audio only?

IMO, better than he does on live TV, where his old-timey mannerisms can seem strange. His voice has a nice timbre to it, faintly Reaganesque but still its own thing.

Apparently I missed the econ section, where Obama was apparently strongest. But that aside, I have to agree with the CW that he's a remarkably poor debater. There were several times when I thought: "Hillary would have knocked that one out of the park."